Darrell Martin is that rarest of Fringe decision-makers, a poacher turned game-keeper; a stand-up comic turned Fringe venue director. A year-round comedy promoter, he operates comedy clubs in Nottingham (since 1994), and Leicester (since 2012), and has been hosting acts at the Edinburgh Fringe since 1996. His interview reveals the most personal story so far in #LiftingtheFringe, his career a microcosm of the Fringe’s evolution since the mid-1990’s.
Note: This is a long-read interview. I expect to digest these social documents into more bite-size articles later in July, but if #LiftingtheFringe is to capture a moment in Fringe time then its value lies in the detail. Enjoy, trust me, none of these discussions have been anything less than fascinating.
Just the Tonic
Shows from 5th – 28th August
For further details click here.
Comments from me: Italics
Darrell Martin: bold
So, your philosophy as an organisation?
Well, it’s quite difficult to pinpoint that because what I do at the Fringe started off from me running a comedy club as a young man in 1994, to being brought up to the Fringe to hand out flyers, and run the tech desk for Sean Lock’s show, to then compering the show, to then running that show a few years later, to running the venue the show was in, to then producing shows…and so I never kind of started or thought, I know what I want to do…
If I do have an angle, or philosophy is to constantly change and adapt to the environment.
So, when I first came up, I was just pleased to be in the show called The Big Value Comedy Show, and someone had chosen me to compere it. I couldn’t believe I was in it to be honest. It meant the world to me: it was probably the best thing I’d done up to that point in my life.
Two years later, I got asked to produce the show. So, my philosophy at that point was to keep the spirit of the show as produced by the former person, but cast the net a lot wider, because my predecessor was London-centric, and I live in Nottingham. I was bringing people in from all over the place.
Darrel soon found himself not just compering, but running a venue, when the former management went under, and the new owners exhibited little talent in the running of a Fringe venue.
I kind of became like the cheap option for some performers …so I know loads of performers, because I was compering gigs around the country, so I just kind of just made it cheap and workable for acts to come up.
I was operating then in what is now the Voodoo Rooms, then part of the Café Royal. So for a few years, we were in there and I’ve carried on The Big Value Show And in, in those years we had: Jason Manford, John Richardson, Sarah Millican, and Gary Delaney…there was quite a big stable in there, but now big sort of famous.
There was also Will Hodgson, and Josie Long, who both won the best newcomer award. I ended up having a management company because I helped Will on his show, and that venue sort of maintained itself.
Then we lost the venue, mainly because the management running the Café Royal then weren’t very good, so it shut down.
Then we floated around, we had a year just doing The Big Value Show, then we took over The Caves from the Underbelly and it’s basically been our home. It’s grown since, but we’ve tried to maintain an ethos. We provide comedians with a professional environment, not all singing and dancing, like the big four, we haven’t got the infrastructure or production costs.
We don’t charge as much for tickets; we don’t charge as much to get the acts to come and perform. I’ve always been of the mindset that the comedians and performers come up here to be seen by as many people as possible. So, I’ve really tried to make it so that they can survive as cheap as possible, and get as many people in to see them, however that comes about.
I think, listening to myself, and to sum up…I try to put on good comedy, because that’s what I specialise in.
Stuff that is as different and original as possible, and also affordable for the audience to be honest. I’ll kind of take risks with and acts…I think I’m someone open minded to new forms of comedy, and is up for taking a risk on people. I just love stand-up comedy and I love the opportunity to put these things on in this city, this festival!
So, I’ve really tried to make it so that they can survive as cheap as possible, and get as many people in to see them, however that comes about.
Darrell Martin
And how would you distinguish your own operations from others in the mix?
I’m probably the only one that actually does stand-up himself. There is that. I don’t think any of the other venues have someone running it, that has done it, or does it still. I run comedy clubs throughout the country the rest of the year. We only do comedy in our venues, pretty much 100%.
If I see someone that I think is good and different, I’ll make sure that show will happen for them.
I also think, as well as part of our philosophy for Edinburgh is we try to make it so that we dealing with performers we can actually get on with. That month is a very long time. I’ve learned over time that if you have someone that’s a bit of a d*ckhead, it can be a nightmare you and your staff to deal with.
Comedy is for life, not just August
We don’t just, we don’t just pop up in Edinburgh doing it. There are obviously The Stand and Monkey Barrell in Edinburgh that are full-time clubs up here as well. I suppose we probably reach further down into the UK, into more of England. I’m probably more nationally spread, and only focussed on comedy, rather than chucking everything together into a pot.
Are there other Fringe operators you admire?
We all have to deal with each other happily, so I’d rather not answer.
So, Covid, effect, and aftermath?
I think it’s taken away a slight bit of confidence in what seemed inevitable.
You approached every year knowing that the other venues were trying to get your acts; you’re trying to get their acts, there’s always people sniffing around venues and you know, and there is a bit of underhandedness sometimes.
Poaching happens of course.
Then everyone else has to pretend it hasn’t happened and get on with them. But what’s happened with the pandemic is it’s made me aware we’re only ever one variant away from disaster.
I’ve learned over time that if you have someone that’s a bit of a d*ckhead, it can be a nightmare you and your staff to deal with.
Darrell Martin
But interest has been so much greater than I hoped this year, because there’s a backlog of people as well as this year’s new performers. It’s mental, just phenomenal.
How can the Festivals be best re-established? How can people work together to help it happen?
Well, I think the biggest thing needed at the moment is public awareness that it’s here. There needs to be a big marketing campaign, not just relying on the people who produce it.
I do think the Scottish Government and the Edinburgh City Council and the various arts bodies should be doing something because it is ridiculous. The Summer Festivals must bring in such a huge amount of money. I’ve no comparison what the comparison is between the Fringe and the International Festival but when they were dishing out funding during the pandemic, the actual International Festival got something like £5 million a year, which is a ridiculous amount of money.
Rich August, just not for Fringe operators
The Fringe gets nothing. Then last year there was a £1.3 million pot of money. I was involved in a zoom chat with someone from the official festival. They already had their program lined up; with money that probably rolled over from the year before. They had tents, everything socially distanced…they said they weren’t worried about ticket sales. They didn’t need to sell tickets to break even! Well, when that £1.3 million was broken up, they got £300,000, and what was left was divided between everyone else in the Fringe and the other festivals.
I didn’t get any: it stopped me doing my program. Yet this International Festival, which already had a huge amount of public money, was given another pot of money. I just find it appalling.
I know so many people who’ve been to the Fringe and I’m biased; I’m involved in the Fringe, but I’d imagine that most people you talk to, have been to see Fringe shows, and just think it’s part of the Edinburgh Festival, when it’s actually the Fringe. People probably think I make a fortune from this, but I don’t.
I think the International Festival is now riding on the back of the Fringe; some people at it are earning a fortune. I think it’s time that the Scottish Government, and funding people realize this and address it and give the Fringe some money or the venues, or something.
I imagine there have been many critical voices of the past, businesses who’ve had a short sharp shock over the last two years of pandemic, and now wanting the Fringe to hurry up and come back.
Goals for this year? Stretch goals?
I just hope everyone that would want to have come over the past few years, comes back to the Fringe Festival. I can pretty much guarantee there will be more acts this year than there have been in many years. It’s the 75th year of the Fringe, but also I know loads of venues have backlogs.
I didn’t have a backlog; I gave mine all their money back; if I went bankrupt, I didn’t want to take anyone with me. At the time, what I thought was a good strength for me, has now left me thinking, “What have I done? I’ve let everyone go!”
In the end it did me favours, acts were like “you were so fair with us,” so loads of people have come back, and more.
I think the International Festival is now riding on the back of the Fringe; some people at it are earning a fortune.
Darrell Martin
Do you have a vision for the longer-term future of the Fringe?
I think, and this is just me…when I go up to George Square, I hate it. I think this isn’t the Festival I fell in love with, or want to be part of; it feels like another festival. I see big, open spaces with loads of drinking areas, and I know it’s all becoming about licensees getting loads of money.
I wish that would stop. You can’t reign that in maybe, but that to me is not I think the Fringe is about. It’s becoming a thing in itself, and I’m talking about Underbelly, and Assembly really – Gilded Balloon are kinda stuck, running around that – I don’t really like this sort of commercialisation, to this extent.
One, because it’s very difficult for others to compete with them. Two, it’s not really what I’m about. I like stand up comedy, back in 1994 I found something that was quite ‘Wild West’, it was great fun!
In the industry there’s stepping to stones to getting onto touring arenas and stuff, which takes the fun out of it. I feel that The Fringe is getting a little too polished, but there’s still stuff in the Old Town; the heart of it is still there. I’m just frightened that the big players will expand too much, consume too much.
You might end up with two extremes, you’ll have all the Underbellies, top heavy with their resources, and then the Free Fringe… I know I’m in the middle, and I’m always worried I’ll get squashed, but I don’t; it doesn’t seem to happen.
I’m actually growing, this year I’ve got a bigger venue, a 300 capacity, but I’ve had to grow into this size because every time I book a new act that does well, they always promise to come back, but they don’t. All the agents tell them they have to be in the Pleasance, or they have to be here or there.
Another thing is, the University in this city has far too much power, and if you can’t get in with them, you can’t get into their rooms. I pay individual landlords for their places, and I can’t get in with the university, so I can’t compete.
I know I’m in the middle, and I’m always worried I’ll get squashed, but I don’t; it doesn’t seem to happen.
Darrell Martin
Acts from your long history that have stayed with you, things you’ve seen…
Someone was asking me about this the other day…I can’t remember the year, maybe 8-10 years ago, I got an e-mail from a performer, Phil Ellis, saying (this is one story amongst many), ‘I’ve got this show, it’s a kid’s show, but run by not a very good performer, looking to cash in, cause kid’s shows do really well. My agent doesn’t want anything to do with it.‘
He described it to me, the ‘Funz and Gamez show’ (since made into a BBC3 kids show), and I loved it. He said, ‘no other venue is interested, but you might be?’
I went, ‘I love it!‘
Basically, one of the characters was an alcoholic uncle, who’d come on drunk. The main character would give out sweets, it was like Tiswas! There was a level of humour for adults, another for kids, and they didn’t cross. It was so brilliant. Everything would go wrong with it.
Now they played on the short version of the title, F.A.G.S. a lot, he wanted to create a situation where there were so many complaints trying to get him out.
So, I told Phil to send me an e-mail in character, not as Phil Ellis, as if it really is your show. I’ll reply ‘yeah, I like the idea of it!’ and if the press get involved, then I’ll complain that we didn’t realise what we’d booked, try to kick you out, you’ll threaten legal action, and we’ll make a massive thing out of it!
We went on and did it, now he had to be in the ‘Kid’s’ section, so we listed it in the children’s show section. Within days all the comedians were bringing their kids, I reached out to Nica Burns from the comedy awards, saying ‘Look, this is one of the funniest things you’ve ever seen!‘
They couldn’t judge it because it was in the kid’s section, but I pressed them again, and again, saying ‘It’s only in the kids’ section, because without kids in there it wouldn’t be funny.’
Well the judges did turn up, and they kept coming back, and they created The Spirit of the Fringe award because they couldn’t fit it in their things. Well. he went on to get the television show out of it, but he’s still with us this year, as himself in the Caves.
I think one of the things I find most annoying is when I invest time, and energy, and risk in shows, and then they do really well that year, then someone takes them somewhere else.
Poaching acts, it’s not big, and it’s not clever
Remember Dr. Brown?
Well, I saw a minute clip, linked in the application that came through around January year he was on with us. It was just him standing in front of a speaker being an idiot, and I loved it. I was contacting his producer, who was then in Australia or America for some reason.
I was holding a spot for them, kept on e-mailing, and eventually they came back saying ‘Alright, we’ll do it!’ – so enthusiastic!
So I was running the two Big Value Shows, and I took the breaks out, slotted them in the middle or the end. So say an 11 o’clock slot or something, and I just pushed it, pushed it, told all the agents, got audiences in, I wanted people to see it. I got the bloke from the Stowe Theatre to come in and see it, he loves it, and next year he produces it in Underbelly!
I asked him, ‘What you doing? I gave them that room for free, I took a risk, I then told you it was on, and then you took him to Underbelly!’
He said he didn’t think about it, and I said, ‘Well you should! People like me need shows like that to carry on. Why would I ever tell you about anything again?‘
‘Once you’re in that machine, you get lost in it; all the promises dissolve.’ These kind of things chip away at you.
Happier days
There was a show booked in, and I remember having a conversation with the producer, there were 3 of them, The Ginge, The Georgie, and the Geek, they were called. I told them they could have a go at the big room, thought it couldn’t do any harm; and then I forgot all about it!
So we’re sitting in the office seeing this queue asking, ‘What show’s on? Ginge, The Geordie, and the Geek?’ This is the first day, we go to ask the queue asking what they’re going to see, and it’s this show!
Basically, these three guys had gone out, gone mental, put publicity everywhere. That was full up every single day it was on.
I’ll end on this one.
I think it was a year before I was running the venue, The Café Royal, well Will Hodgson was in the line-up for The Big Value, but was also doing a solo show, down at Holyrood Tavern with Brian Damage.
I think after two or three days, now I didn’t know him very well, he was a quirky bloke, quite unbookable at the time. He was this odd little storyteller, all care-bears, and pink hair, and slightly cross-dressing, but not really; a bit punk.
Will Hodgson, and accidentally becoming a manager
He came in all upset, 2 or 3 days in, complaining no one was coming to see his show, and he was going to give up. Now his show was on at like 12:30 or 1pm something like that. I said, ‘Tell you what, I’ll come down, watch it. If I like it, then I’ll help you promote it. If I don’t, I’ll tell you what’s wrong, and if you change it, then I’ll help you promote it.’
I saw it, came out telling him it was brilliant and not to change anything. All he needed was an audience. So, I went out for maybe 2 hours a day before his day, wandering the Pleasance Courtyard giving away tickets. That lasted for around a week, it wasn’t selling tickets though.
And then the judges started coming in, and they keep coming in.
Then he got nominated; then he won! It was like a proper underdog story. Out of that, I set up a management company. It was such a whirlwind through that 3 weeks. It was great, and he did really well out of it, and I think the next year Josie Long was nominated, also in the Café Royal, and that let her jump above comedy clubs; she wasn’t bookable in those sorts of venues.
That’s the great thing about the Fringe, if your shows good, and you tell people about it, then you can succeed.
Over-tourism, thoughts?
The fringe can’t be blamed. If you don’t like it I, don’t live in a city that the rest of the world was just going to visit in the first place. You don’t like tourists, go and live where I came from, Basingstoke – no one wants to go, you want to leave.
Don’t clog up this beautiful place, everyone wants to come to. The Fringe brings in some people, it also brings in money which keeps businesses alive here. We don’t make as much money as you think we do; if we did, I’d have retired by now, and let someone else do it.
There are some who make some money, but plenty who lose it too. What does make money is the landlords and landladies, all the restaurants, the pubs.
Hyper-concentration, if not over-tourism maybe?
It’s because the University has these buildings – if you’re going to moan about people making money, please ring up the University as ask what happens to the bar money, the rental money. They’re the ones making money out of this. I think the students in Edinburgh get a discount on their drinks, it’s really quite wrong to be honest.
Accommodation blues?
It’s really difficult. If you’ve got a flat, and someone offers you £1000, and another offers £2000, you’re not a charity are you?
Maybe there are there too many Airbnb’s, but I think one of the problems is the Scottish Government have changed the law, so you can’t have lets for 9 months. I think that’s caused a lot of problems.
I know there was the old situation where you could have students in for 9 months, kick them out end of June or July, then rent them out for the Festival.
It does protect long-term tenants, but I think they could have made adjustments if you had definite student accommodation. Now you probably have students holding onto things, then subletting through August; or just sitting empty.
Could the University provide accommodation, probably? They probably do, I don’t know. If they’re not willing to rent stuff out to people, they’ll be killing their own golden goose.
The other thing needed, and this is something locals can do, is to address the ridiculous charges they’re trying to put on accommodation this year. I’ve had four shows book with me, then change their mind because they can’t afford reasonable accommodation. The thing that will kill it in this city is when performers stop being able to get accommodations; they might do this year, but they won’t come back again.
That goes for the public too, who can’t afford anywhere to stay. Just because you out there in Edinburgh have lost money the last two years, don’t go on a cash grab because that will kill the Fringe. So, we need a massive amount of marketing, let everyone know we’re here; secondly, we need some controls on people’s greed.
What about this year?
I’m pretty much fully booked! We’ve managed to get a new venue, just a little up from the Pleasance Courtyard. It’s the Charteris Centre, we had it in 2019, but since it’s had £2 million put into it. Has a 300 capacity, and we have Daniel Sloss, Craig Hill, and Jimeoin in there.
We’ve got Tom Stade at The Belle Angele, which is brilliant; John Robins is coming back, he was in Big Value years ago, Scott Bennett for a short run – another Big Value alumnus – now he’s been on Live at the Apollo, a household name.
There are a few other things I can’t speak about yet. There’s just so much, I’ve got about 170 shows, I do it all myself. Trying to remember them all; you really only remember those you’ve been dealing with the last 2-3 weeks! You should see my spreadsheet. It started off on a piece of paper, that was 2 rooms. 2 years later we have 4 rooms, and it was a table full of paper, and post-it notes everywhere.
Now we have a spreadsheet covering 19 rooms!
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