Alex Petty leads Laughing Horse, one of the pioneers of the Free Fringe movement. Producing shows, and running venues in Edinburgh since 2004, they were already a long standing presence on the London comedy scene (since 1998). Their work now extends around the world, but every August, the lion’s share of their attentions turn to Edinburgh. Alex was kind enough to sit down for a chat with me, and was the first Fringe decision maker to do so.
Laughing Horse Comedy: The Free Edinburgh Fringe Festival
4th – 28th August
FREE, Unticketed, and Pay What You Want
For further details click here.
Prompts from me: Italics
Alex Petty: bold
So, how are things with you, and Laughing Horse?
It’s great to have all the Festivals back, but everything is sort of tenfold going on at the same time, but I’m genuinely not complaining!
A year ago, I was sitting here thinking nothing was going to happen again ever. It was just very strange: we were up running shows at three of our venues in the end. The venues were full, everything was busy, but the minute you walked away from a venue; it was dead. It was a very weird feeling.
In the first year of the pandemic, we managed to stage one show, right at the end when restrictions were released enough. So outside, in a tent, no walls, as it was, but I was very happy we have one person come up to what we could call a ‘live Fringe show.’
Zoom gigs, good, but not the same as live action
We did a lot of online stuff, but obviously it’s not the same. I rebuilt my office to be a mini-theatre, but it’s back to my office now. There was a lot sitting in this room doing not a lot. Zoom gigs were good, they served a purpose, but it was so good last year to get acts back on stage.
People are feeling much more confident, places are opens, will stay open, and they can come out and see something. We’ve had a really good bounce back since the Omicron surge for gigs in general (we run through the year at various venues), and we’re looking forward to getting more venues back open, and expecting healthy ticket sales. It’s a good sign for this Summer: people are going to be raring to get out.
So outside, in a tent, no walls, as it was, but I was very happy we have one person come up to what we could call a ‘live Fringe show.’
Alex Petty
Your philosophy on the Fringe?
Always in favour of the performers, and independent promoters like ourselves. We’ve done free shows obviously for a long time, and we felt that’s a much better, certainly for the small-scale shows coming up to Edinburgh — not having the overbearing costs. Last year we played with the Pay What You Want model which worked well. We could see that benefited performers and venues as well. So, this year we’re going into with a sort of a mix and match of both.
Balancing the needs of all
What we want is performers to come up to Edinburgh and get a good deal out of it! Whether it’s the press and marketing, and the career side of the Fringe, whether it’s making some money, or just not going home with ridiculous costs. Likewise for independent promoters, like ourselves to come in to run shows, to get the same sort of deal. Also, for Edinburgh venues to get a fair deal out of it as well: they’re getting bar takings, we’re getting a room. I think it’s trying to get a balance between everyone who’s involved in putting a production on getting what they want out of it, whilst not being greedy and overbearing, which works most of the time…hopefully
And what makes Laughing Horse stand out from the pack?
I’d always say the USP is the free model, but obviously there are other promoters with that.
I think this year, the USP is going to be that flexibility to let performers choose what model they want between free and Pay What You Want or Pay What You Can, as we’re branding it. Certainly last year, and I don’t know if other promoters will follow suit. The PWYW model was always a model where performers paid a set price to get a ticket in advance, or they could pay free on the door.
Pay What You Want
Venues were very good at working with us. What I wanted to do was to have a Pick Your Own Price for those coming to a show. Those with a bit more money could donate a bit more; other people didn’t have to. They operate a nice flexible system like that at the Brighton Fringe where performers had a contactless terminal with a sliding bar. Within the technology currently available at Edinburgh, they were able to set it up so people could choose from 4 price points.
I think it’s trying to get a balance between everyone who’s involved in putting a production on getting what they want out of it, whilst not being greedy and overbearing, which works most of the time…hopefully
Alex Petty
I’ve spoken to one or two other places from last year who certainly were very interested in following suit on this. I think with everyone in Edinburgh, ideas get absorbed, and moved around. If it’s a good idea, people take an idea or change it slightly, and that is the beauty of the Fringe; it develops and grows over the course of the year.
Others that you admire?
Absolutely. The Scottish comedy festival down at the Beehive; Rick and Sully operate a very similar philosophy to us. We’ve worked with them on shows in the past, and they work on a very similar principle of favourability to the performers.
Heroes of Fringe as well, Bob Slayer, something else that grew out of the Free Festival originally, and has a very similar pro performer philosophy. There’s people around like that we spend a lot of time working with. It’s all about being able to deliver a product which benefits performers and audiences, within the bounds of free, low-cost professional venues as much as you can – obviously there’s only so far you can go before charging thousands of pounds.
How were those pandemic blues?
It followed the process of a lot of people… when the pandemic struck, I was out at the Adelaide Fringe along with a lot of performers. You didn’t really grasp what was going on until the end of that Fringe, where literally the day it finished, Adelaide went into lockdown. So went from a normal Fringe to very weird last weekend where, pretty much, people who didn’t want to go out.
We got back on emergency flights to England, expecting it to be quickly, and then just pretty much coming back to a country that’s completely different from the one we left only a couple of months earlier.
The Pandemic
There was that shock then, asking yourself what was going to happen with the performing arts; how are we going to cope? It’s a virus that circulates best in enclosed spaces, and Fringe festivals in particular rely on temporary venues, often unsuitable rooms with poor ventilation. It wasn’t clear how it could be made to work.
Of course, the biggest shock was that April seeing Edinburgh cancelled, something no one could believe.
We adapted into online shows, and just looked to a future, believing things would come back in future, somehow. Thankfully, with the support the performers that were expecting to go up in 2020, and venues that have kept with us through it (some have had difficulties) we’ve managed to keep going, looking forward and hope to be back to near-normal this year…fingers crossed!
Last year, whatever day Nicola Sturgeon made the announcement of allowing indoor entertainment, I think it was June 30th, it was literally the same day I spoke to venues, asking if we were going to try to do something. We managed to do it in a month, which was ridiculous, but up to that day, everyone I spoke to assumed it wasn’t going to happen. Edinburgh City Council seemed to be making rules just to make sure this big event didn’t happen. We got through Brighton Fringe last year, which was weird with restrictions, and distancing, but it gave us a warm-up for Edinburgh.
It’s a virus that circulates best in enclosed spaces, and Fringe festivals in particular rely on temporary venues, often unsuitable rooms with poor ventilation. It wasn’t clear how it could be made to work.
Alex Petty
Shaking off the rust…
The weirdest thing was getting behind a sound desk for the first time in 2 years, and looking down wondering how do I do this?
The first weekend coming back to putting regular comedy club show on again, all the comedians I’d known for years as bullet proof, well for the first couple of performances being just a little off on timing, missing punchlines, feeling a bit weird and off. They were very happy to be get back, and everyone went with it thought!
Hopes for this year?
My hope at the moment is for the Fringe to be back, as near as normal as possible; the buzz on the streets, the whole of Edinburgh having a Fringe Festival. I think the reality is it will be smaller, just because some venues closed, and other issues ongoing like that, but I think it’s certainly going to be 70%, 80% of what we had in 2019. I think the stretch goal would be to everything in the next few months opens up and it’s 2019 again. Buzz, people everywhere, rooms and venues in every single nook and cranny in Edinburgh, because I think that’s what works best for every aspect of the Fringe.
Big Festival Appetite, but it’s not going to be plain sailing
There’s nothing else like it in the world, for all those types of venues, the density, the packing in, and just about every square inch of central Edinburgh turned into a festival. When you go to the second, or third biggest Festivals, and they’re great festivals, but they’re spread out, there’s really not that much of a buzz around time. It’s such a huge step down from Edinburgh.
I think for Free Festival goals, we just need a much stronger Fringe than last year. We’ve got various venues closed over the pandemic or who’ve had to change their business. I think that’s going to be duplicated certainly with what I’m hearing from people that there are going to be issues with the bricks and mortar in Edinburgh, because of the way things have changed in the past 2 years.
I think the reality is it will be smaller, just because some venues closed, and other issues ongoing like that, but I think it’s certainly going to be 70%, 80% of what we had in 2019.
Alex Petty
I’m looking at where we are now (in terms of venues and bookings), and I’m hoping between now and Summer that the stretch goal is to get it a little bit bigger. I think whatever’s going to happen is going to be smaller than 2019, but it’s wanting to get things back together as much as possible for those performers who do want perform with us. It’s only the end of February now, but the performers are all talking about wanting slots confirmed, and other venues being full, or nearly so. It’s back to the normal rush for this time of year, it’s stressful, but great to being back to having that again!
Best way forward for this year at the Festivals?
A lot of working together, sharing time and energy. I think if promoters and venues engage more with the Fringe Society itself, they do offer a lot, the people there do strive to do as much as they can to make things work, quite often against a lot of negative publicity.
Likewise the Society would work operate much better with positive feedback from venues. There was a huge amount of work and dedication on all sides just to make last year happen from a lot of people; and a lot of other people were just like, ‘No, we can’t be bothered.‘
Fringe Society, an antidote to venue apathy
So all credit to the Fringe Society, and all the people there for making it happen last year. We just need more of that collaboration, and working and passing of information, just to get it on because ultimately all of the venues, whether it’s paid, free, Pay What You Can, everything else in the middle, large courtyards or tiny basements…everyone truly is in it together, and benefits from it being bigger, better, and benefitting from a lot more working together.
Could the Fringe spread elsewhere?
It would be great if the Fringe could spread out further, it’s just psychology that so many of the big venues have ended up in one place, and nobody wants to move out. You can get good audiences, the more the Fringe stretches out, the more you find venues in an area.
In past Laughing Horse has programmed at The Newsroom on Leith Street, as well as venues on Broughton Street, further out from the usual Fringe areas of occupancy.
The City Council, and public places
Right now, Edinburgh Council, this year wants to cut back on the use of public spaces, which I understand. What would benefit, would be the Council promoting other venues, other spaces to encourage footfall away from the existing hubs, rather than just saying where we can’t go, or waiting for someone with the biggest amount of money to rent out the city centre parks anyway.
So, over tourism, what do you make of the claims and/or the issue?
I think there is a way forwards together. It’s just getting all parties used to working together towards a goal, rather than now when people are pulling in different directions. I completely understand from the point of view of residents that Edinburgh does get taken over, and it is crazy for the month.
I’m not precisely surely how that can be changed, there isn’t one easy solution, but I think if everyone talked together, we could find a balance.
Inconvenient for some, critical to others
I think with doing the free shows in the past we are seen more favourably, we aren’t seen to be ripping people off, but we do see the same feedback when people can’t get from one end of the Royal Mile to another.
What would benefit, would be the Council promoting other venues, other spaces to encourage footfall away from the existing hubs, rather than just saying where we can’t go, or waiting for someone with the biggest amount of money to rent out the city centre parks anyway.
Alex Petty
From my point of view, I want a busy Edinburgh, full of tourists. I can see from the point of view that a lot of Edinburgh businesses city centre want and need that because that underpins their entire financial year, and provides employment and money. I can also see the point of view of the people that this does interrupt their daily lives for a month, aside from those who rent their flats out for a month, and take home 3 grand for a 1 bed flat. I don’t care for them at all.
Accommodation blues, how are you dealing with the rising costs?
It only seems to have gotten worse since pre-COVID, a lot of people now don’t want to rent their flats out due to uncertainty. I think the university is, is again, quite rightly concentrating on what might need to be done for students over August.
There’s less accommodation, the prices have gone up, rules – rightly or wrongly — have come in to cut Airbnb, so that you often can’t book the full set of Festival dates. Accommodation costs are up a significant percentage since 2019, which is going to affect which performers can afford to come up here.
Not so open access
We try and fight against The Fringe only being open to the people that could afford it by doing the free shows, by not charging rentals, but then every other turn, someone else wants to take an extra few hundred pounds here, an extra thousand pounds there, and then The Fringe starts to become only people that can afford it, where it should be everybody. It’s an open access arts festival. That’s what it should stand for. But there’s not an easy solution of how everyone can get into it anymore.
For someone like me, who’s had to rent flats in Edinburgh for a long time – 20 years at least — let’s just say this has been the most tricky year to find something for the right dates and for price that wasn’t astronomical.
It’s always been expensive, but it was, it really is astronomical this year.
Favourite acts of past, and present you’ve worked with?
Not historical, but not up this year of course, but Janey Godley has been brilliant, and supportive of the Free Festival over the years. It’s so sad that she’s ill (Janey is currently recovering from treatment, and we wish Janey all the love in the world), but hopefully she’ll recover and get back on her feet. She’s been the mainstay of the Counting House for 4-5 years, even whilst her profile has increased, she’s always stuck with the Free Festival, because she believes in the same thing we do, in giving back to the public. We’re definitely going to miss her.
Hopefully we’re going to have Phil Kay up this year (now confirmed), another great Scottish act, and a legend of the scene. His entire attitude to himself, and his shows chimes with us.
It’s difficult to pick out names though, because we’ve got a lot of regular acts who come and do the festival, but aren’t the well-known names. I’m sitting here now, putting them into venues, folks that have been doing the work for a decade easily.
Matty Grey comes to mind though, he’s a kid’s entertainer from Australia, and was pretty much on the phone the minute that restrictions in Australia looked like letting him over here. Pretty much by the end of that conversation he’d booked plane tickets, even before I’d confirmed the venue! He just really wants to get back, and do the show, for no other reason than ‘to do’ Edinburgh. That’s the sort of act which really espouses what the Fringe is about: it’s not about awards and such, it’s just getting performances on in front of the public.
How do you view the future of the Summer Festivals/Fringe?
That is a tricky one. Like I said earlier, the Fringe is an organism that grows on its own; it’s very difficult to predict. There’s always been different ideas, different people coming in; go back 20 years and there wasn’t the free shows; go back 10 years there, wasn’t the Pay What You Can shows; hubs and venues and things have changed, be it through things like the Cowgate fire, and now COVID. I think it will always change, but it will always be there in some shape or form, unless Putin has a particularly bad day in the coming months – let’s hope not!
It will always be a huge part of the arts, what where it’s going, or what will off-shoot, I wouldn’t like to predict!
Edinburgh, still the biggest arts festival still?
It’s the biggest by some margin in a normal year, which I’m hoping for this year. It’s the only festival that everyone in the world in performing arts sees as their aim. I can only assume it’s going to be back to the same this year. A lot of performers in the UK, they do go out and do the Australian festivals, but a lot of that is getting ready for Edinburgh with a great show.
Plenty acts, too few venues
You can see the desire in people this year, I could fill 5-times the venues I have available with great acts, and regulars who haven’t been able to get back. It’s the only place where everybody likeminded in the performing arts, the industry, and media can hang around together in a bar and catch up.
For someone like me, who’s had to rent flats in Edinburgh for a long time – 20 years at least — let’s just say this has been the most tricky year to find something for the right dates and for price that wasn’t astronomical.
Alex Petty
You get some sort of weird things at other festivals occasionally, but it’s really Edinburgh where people really push that to the fore: the site-specific stuff, the completely crazy shows and one-off events. That’s the beauty of it as well. You can just walk into something completely unexpected and it’s amazing and brilliant, or awful and everything in between, but it is just that fringe experience that people want and, and, and I’ve missed the last couple of years.
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